CVGM.net - Chiptune, Retro & Video Game Music

Is it only i who don't like when too processed recordings are uploaded? This is almost always a problem when it comes to music taken from OST's wich tend to have reverb and possible "fake stereo" if the sound source is mono.

Mostly it sound bad when effects are added to recordings from low tech sound hardware.. like example Gameboy,NES other PSG soundchips and arcade games using similar sound hardware or FM sounds.

Not to point out specifically MAT (others upload suspicious song versions also), but i discussed it with him and he thinks it is "subjective" what is right to like... but what then what should be added here? I mean the heart of CVGM is the platforms and if it sound so different from what that platform/system can sound then the platform system should be removed and maybe be sorted by genre instead?

Fishguy said he wanted "quality".. is it not that when the sound is representing the platform correctly?

Another possibility is having two versions of the music uploaded... one with reverb added to it and thus has the "soung source" set to "soundtrack OST" and the other wich is pure to the platform and then has "song source" set to game? This idea is not something i like btw.

MAT mention that why he is not adding emulator recordings (wich sound true to the platform) is because it takes time. But if time is needed the maintain quality then it should take time. Also research all music that you upload to make sure it sound like on that platform or the recordings you have in possession are from the game at all.

I personally can accept OST uploads from games that ..for example.. play the music in the game at 22khz but the OST has the exact same recording but played at 44khz... but maybe other people have problem with that?
Also making the stereo seperation on Amiga recordings less wide is popular... i can't say i am a fan of it but i can accept that also.

OST uplaods from most new system is usually ok as the are almost always sounding exactly the same on the OST like in the game... like PS2,PS3 Xbox/360 and such.... PC games older than 2000 might sound different so research them extra before uploading.

I have here an example from "Haunted Castle"... OST and emulator recordings:
http://www.ym2149.com/haunted_example_mp3.zip

And also i feel the need of having a popular C-64 song wich i ostified as example because people don't seem to react unless it is there favourite music that gets messed with... so i will upload this one to the C-64 platfrom
http://www.ym2149.com/Matt_Gray-Bangkok_Knights_Loader_OST.mp3

Please reply to this thread.

Amiga stereo separation is painful. Sounds terribly on headphones. And if I wear only one side (often when I have to respond to environment around me) I get only half of the music. That makes experience totally lame.

I promise to address other issues ASAP as it's interesting thread, but my time is a bit limited.


-GF

I don't ever wear only one side of headphones, but Goat and especially bpoint (what's his new nickname again, Falkin or something) so he ends up rating certain Amiga tracks low saying they sound crappy simple because he was not aware of the full music.

Now, this how someone listens to cvgm music is also case-by-case. Some use dolby surround, perhaps, some half of headphones, and so on. This is same as issue for artist portraits which depend on resolution which is also case-by-case situation. Smaller images may look great on smaller resolutions but leave a lot of blank space on larger ones and so on.

There is a reason we have OST as source, and I doubt Fish only meant it to be used for newer platform because he primarily likes older game music, so he probably added that OST feature before he added new platforms (I mean PS3 was added only after I came and prompted for its addition, which was 1-2 months ago).

Furthermore, there is vgmdb field which can obviously be inputted for say C64 game music that comes from soundtrack, but not for C64 music that is ripped from the game. Vgmdb is basically game OST site, so if that field can be applied to any song, then OST music isn't that much no-no on the list of things.

Personally, if some C64 or NES game song is mono and OST version is stereo with reverb, if they do sound different enough to prompt same person to give them different rating, then it's not the same and can as well be added both with different source (game or OST). And in cases where they sound different (by arrangement or some other minimal or major differences), then not only source will be different, but platform will then become Arranged OST. The line when something should be called Arranged OST can sometimes be blurred if the tracks seem very similar but still not exactly the same. Sometimes they may just sound longer or be extended versions that were not fully included in the game.

But processed or non-processed songs, I don't min having them both if they are game music. Processed or arranged might as well sound like remix sometimes (check a few C&C tracks I marked as Remixes... ingame music sounds same, though in mono, but without the speech used in the tracks, but OST versions for some of the ingame tracks are not only stereo but also remixed).

I am a big fan of Turrican music, but listening to my favorite Dungeons tracks, while nice, would sound so much better with stereo instead of mono, imho. And I am not referring to listening with only half of headset.

Game OSTs are almost never the same as ingame music, if only in quality (48kbps instead of say ogg or mp3 ingame file, etc.). In cases like such I would prefer to have OST version without the need of ingame version. C&C and Red Alert music is all mono ingame. Having those tracks that were on OST in stereo removes the need to have them as mono, because the mono in this case means same track but simply in bad quality because they were limited with CD-ROM space for the game resource files. In old games like Metal Gear or Castlevania the mono and stereo reverb is difference, but no in quality, so having them both is just acceptable, imho.

While Stefan (and even I in some cases) may prefer original GB or NES track in mono, younger players or some other players not so familiar with older squeeky sound may appreciate stereo reverb version and like it much more because to them it may sound more listenable.

Adding OST music doesn't diminish quality simply because in cases like Hounted House it is not the same music. OST can never diminish game music quality, it can only improve it (like in C&C case), while in other cases it can be treated as Arranged version of the ingame music.

Anyway, that's my 20 cent on the topic.

If there are any rules to abide on this site enforced (or given) by Fish, I will follow them. So far I've learned two rules I take in consideration when adding game/game ost music:

1. This site does not accept licensed songs (so no Michael Jackson, MC Hammer, Britney Spears and whatever songs may be found in games like GTA, NFS, etc.) unless they are remixed for the game (The Saboteur is one such case). Only game songs that are accepted are those made for the game itself. Oldies we already have like for Fallout 3 are current exception (probably mostly because none of those artists are alive), but this site's goal isn't to turn into all-out radio station, but to remain true to game music and demoscene music.

2. We shouldn't add OST (or ingame, I suppose) music from new/recent games that are still very popular so we don't attract too much attention on that matter. In that regard I won't be adding anything less than 2-year old for not-popular games or 3/4-year old for more popular titles.

If there are any rules/guidelines to add on top of those two, so be it. Fish should tell us if he wants to enforce some rules on OSTs (especially newer ones if he thinks they may present licensing problems or any other kind of problems for him), but case of Haunted House OST (which was 24-year old and can't be found anywhere in the store nowadays) doesn't seem like a legal issue problem, but only in the way of representing certain game music (which isn't bad, just sometimes different, imho).

Not sure if we should assign a platform to any song taken from the OST. I recently downloaded music for some game where same tracks vary on Xbox, PS2, PC and Xbox 360. Not sure if the company made them like that on purpose, of if they were slightly tweaked to suit the certain platform better, but if such games exist, then it may be hard to figure out which platform should the OST be assigned to.

Since we don't support multi-platform selection for songs, it didn't usually matter to me if for some newer game I choose the platform Xbox 360 or PS3 or PC or PS2 or so... I usually chose the one I had the covers for or the platform on which the game was first released. If I had the ability to multiselect, I would probably check all the platforms that apply to the song. But based on the current system for this site, well... it's sometimes hard to tell what is right and what is not when all the options aren't covered. I figure this site is trying to focus more on letting people listen to their favorite (or new) game music without trying to be too nitty-gritty with the details and 100% correctness.

Bah, I know nuthin' anymore :puzzled:

No need for an "OST" platform imho.... either upload the game version (no reverb) or the arranged version if there is any of that music.

First, I cannot believe you murdered Bangkok Knights like that ...

Back in the days of young, I too used to use headphones on my Amiga, so I could listen to music without waking up my parental enforcement droids. The stereo seperation was a huge annoyance, and in the end I ended up building a small headphone adapter that merged both sound channels into one. Sometimes when I take recordings from my Amiga (like the recordings I made for RK not too long ago) I will often merge the channels together as one, just to save that pain on others. I'll agree that some tracks are particularly more prone to it than others, and with the example of Turrican used above, there are a couple of Turrican tracks that make your brain feel like a ping pong ball as it bounces between the 2 channels.

Regarding the subject of OST, its platform was created mainly for the purpose of games that did include original soundtracks (normally on the same CD) along with them, or as a separate purchase. I cite games such as Half-Life, which had a large portion of Audio data on it. It was also added at a time when most of the other hardware platforms were not originally there.

I have mixed feelings when I listen to some of the tracks in OST. My most common experience with the points trying to be made are usually with soundtracks that originated from Megadrive/Early Arcades such as Ninja Warriors, they add that lame ass reverb/echo to the tracks to hide the chip sounds and push it off as something else. Some Streets of Rage tracks did that for the SegaCD version, but were recorded on better equipment (which is OK). I've uploaded a few of them myself. Personally, I prefer to hear the music as it came from the game in a situation like that. If the OST has to be 'modified' from that original game source anyways to sound different, then it may as well be here. There are some situations where OST is recorded on different instruments/live orchestra/better computers, in which case if it could be uploaded a 2nd time, referencing the new instruments etc. in the info. Most people will prefer the original version they remember from sitting in front of the machine as a kid. I would suggest just use best intuition with this, if the modified versions sound terrible, while its not bad to upload them, just remember that some people might vote them down for being over modified.

I dont think OST should be removed entirely, as it still has some use, I just think its one of those things where its on a per-game basis especially when it comes to the arcade side of things, which is your guys specialty not mine

The conclusion we have reached in the past with Real/Emulated recordings usually work out to allowing emulated recordings, as long as their quality isn't crappy. The emulated recording is fine until a real source one can be made, and Stefan has replaced many in the past over time as he adds more boards to his wonderful collection. While it is a goal to have every recording from the real source, realistically it isnt always possible, so as long as the emulated recording can closely resemble the original then it is OK by me.

In other words OST's with reverb should be avoided.

And since emulators do a very good job these days (possible not for C-64 bacuase of the analog filter)so is it easy to make an WAV/MP3 from NSF, PSF, DSF, KSS... or whatever. ok... some emulators are bad so you need to find the good ones... but a seperate thread could be created for such listing and discussion if needed.

OST uploads from games that use streamed music is ok... like Castlevania:sotn wich play the music in the game at.. what could it be 38khz? 32khz? but on the OST CD it is 44khz. And also most new PC games that use streamed music.

The Amiga stereo tightning is ok, i am not a fan of it but i can accept it

Decided to put (OST version) suffix to track names that aren't really arranged versions of in-game music but are either just made stereo or had added reverb, are are simply full (for example in-game track lasts 2min because it was cut, but OST has full 3min track).

In most cases, all of the above refer mainly to official soundtracks and 99% for older games.

In any more enhanced version, there is Arranged OST option to be used instead of platform.

But preferring original Amiga mono over stereo enhanced tracks or old MSX tracks without reverb is nothing but a matter of taste, imho.

Personally, I am not fan of Bangkok Knights loader track in any format, and listening to them as either C64 version of Stefan's OST version sound equally... well, bad. Not sure if Stefan's version is Arranged OST version, buf if it's not, he should add it with (OST version) suffix and that would be perfectly fine. People may prefer that version (probably younger people, or people not familiar with original one like me). Basically, people deserve to listen to be able to listen to what they want. If they like nostalgic feel of true C64 they'll play that, if they like reverbs they'll play those, and if they only like newer arranged versions, they'll pick something like DaXX's Golden Axe or Goldrunner tunes. In any case, we should have all those available

The thing is, perhaps if older consoles or handhelds had the same capability as CD-ROM, companies might as well only use reverb tracks instead of to what they were limited to

All that said, I prefer reverb or non-reverb version only based to my current mood. My youngest age of music I can remember comes from Amiga, which is why I think MODULES are best music format ever made. But still, even I prefer to listen stereo version of my favorite Turrican tracks rather than mono, even when I use headset, which is pretty much always

Bottomline, don't force us to listen only to variants that you like

If you find reverb tracks so different, think of them as remixes, and there are many both good and bad remixes out there
Or think of them as Arranged OST version. To some people arranged OST version of some tracks is hard to listen. Or imagine orchestrated version of some NDS soundtrack? Well, there is one for Gyakuten Saiban series and it's pretty damn good. Tastes, people, tastes, that's all this conversation sums up to. If there are many different versions of some track, we should have them all

You may prefer reverbed version, no problem. It's a matter of personal taste. If I understand correctly the thing is that postprocessed-XYZ is not XYZ any longer. So I guess what other dudes try to say is that "enhanced" records should not be uploaded under game platform.

I meant Amiga had stereo separation so some sounds can only be heard on left speaker, some on right. I prefer them joined for the same reason you explained in the upper post, but even for listening pleasure itself.

If reverb is so different to think of them as Arranged OST, then so be it, I will mark all those tracks I uploaded to that instead of adding (OST version) comment. Though there are even more arranged official soundtrack versions of those tracks which really are arranged, not just with added reverb.

Still not sure about the best way to handle reverb tracks, but from Stefan's and Fish's point of view, they would like game rips to replace OST reverbed tracks. If they are the same, replacement is unnecesary, if they are different, then they should be added separately (for which case I've added that OST version comment).

Just ask yourselve why do so many OSTs of older game music have reverbs. The composers themselves must've thought they sound better when listening as standalone. CVGM is listening as standalone, not listening while playing the game.

Even some bad music can be listenable during gameplay, but on standalone you start to notice it in a whole different way because you are more focused on the music. So we can think of OST reverbed tracks made as a foreground music, while in-game tracks were made as a background music. Just a though

There is also small technical issue. Some people like to judge (and rate accordingly) how well given track uses available platform resources (in case of older, limited hardware). Adding post-processing makes that impossible or misleading.

And I am not nazi in any way. You can still upload tracks if you want, it's just a matter of platform selection AFAIK.

Cheers,
-Le Goat

Okay, so, should I mark them all as "Arranged OST" as far as the platform is concerned, or should the Fish add another platform, something like "Reverbed oldies" or something along that style?

And in case of actual arranged OSTs, I'll then add comment so people don't think they are dupes when both reverbed and actual arranged version appear as arranged OST with same name.

Anyway, let's see what Fish votes for as the best way to handle/rename/re-select these before I go do anything

Well, Fish, what's your verdict?

I would put reverberd OST's in "Wild" platform.. i don't feel they are "arranged" enough to be in Arranged OST platfrom.

That is the same suggestion Fish gave me.

But for some reason I thought Wild is used for when we don't know the platform or source of the song. In this case, we do, source is OST, and platform is... well, it's reverbed version of the GB or MSX or NES ingame track.

Should they still be wild? Even if source/platform is known? Both are OST, in this case. And they are not remixes.

"wild" is when the soundhardware is unknown, and those reverbed PSG songs use unknown effectors ;-)

Also i noticed some Castlevania 4 songs just uplaoded that are from an OST.... so not only PSG OST's have too much reverb (CV4 has more than the internal reverb of the SNES).

Wild is also used when multiple instruments are used, so many so that there isnt anywhere else to really put it. A lot of LSDJ songs often went into wild because they used so many 3rd party additions to the song data.

I think Wild is a good place to put these when they have so much reverb added to them.

yes but when it comes to some LSDJ songs so were the music made with those other intruments from the beginning and not added afterwards. The composers usually dont call it gameboy music then but rather "bitpop" or simply "8-bit style" or simlilar.

We have a category now for LSDJ-based songs, the point is, Wild is used for just about anything else I think we have a song in there composed using Spoons

Would it be okay to make a platform such as "Enhanced OST" which would serve the purpose of holding enhanced ingame music for the purpose of OST. Basically, music that isn't arranged too much but has small differences, like added reverbs or removed stereo separation or sound very small in difference to be called arranged ost (list many NDS soundtracks, no doubt).

I just noticed that plugins for playback of some older platforms have option for reverse stereo (is that same as reverb, btw?) or echo or many other options. Guess when we use those to convert music to mp3, we need to make sure they are all turned off or the end result may sound closer to those soundtracks than to in-game music